denizen2 has contributed to 9 posts out of 20658 total posts
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If anybody would like to get some understanding concerning data-sources for Forex trading, then they really should first understand the 'business model' that is implied by *any/all* the agents that are participating in the execution of your Forex trades. Therefore, any choices concerning a 'Forex' data-source, by either DTN or any DTN users, should be based on how best to avoid the fraudlent behavior that is too prevelent among almost all of the Forex brokers and dealers/banks. Relying on using data from a 'dealing-desk' is a very bad idea in the first place.
The bottom line is this: *any* data-source that is NOT based on an ECN type network has a 'conflict of interest' type problem that will likely lead to such things (among others) as 'running your stops'. I.e., very dangereous for your financial health!
Anybody thinking about 'trading' the Forex markets should first read about the broker misdealings, outright fraud, scams, and misconceptions that are prevelent in the Forex markets, e.g., go to Phil Davis's blog at http://nondealingdesk.blogspot.com/ and read the long list of articles there. Plus also go the NDD Forum at http://nondealingdesk.com/ and read the very many entries under "Choosing the Right Broker".
After reading these, you will likely be thinking about Forex-data-sources in a different light. The making of any choices on data-sources is probably irrelevent if those data sources do not provide total 'transparent pricing' among very many market makers, including even other retail-type traders too, as potentially taking the other side of your trade. eSignal's Forex offering is at least neutral, because it includes most all of the possible bid/ask prices that are being 'published', so that is somewhat better than relying on only one Bank or Dealer. But you still don't have a solution available for your trade executions, just based on any of that data, unless one of those eSignal 'components' happen to also be an ECN.
My suggetion to DTN is to drop the Tuttle and Barclays banks as 'Forex' data-sources, because these banks are just another 'dealing-desk', and all of what goes with that kind of business model. A thorough study of the independent references given on this subject will be very instructive about who to avoid, and not (yet) very conclusive about who to use for your trading-data. But one thing is clear to me is the paramount importance of the ECN model, and the fact that there are plenty of 'imposters' out there who pretend to be offering brokerage accounts that are somehow equivalent to an ECN network (just because they 'say' they have a 'non-dealing desk' operation,..... e.g., FXCM comes to mind).
For me, I have decided to go back to trading the emini-futures markets where there is an ECN network giving me access to ALL bid/ask prices and the ability to trade against the 'best prices', instead of just against my 'broker/bank'. Maybe someday we will have the equivalent type of ECN in the Forex markets, and maybe we are close to that with the Oanda, the EFX Group and/or InteractiveBrokers, but I am not yet confortable with these choices either.
Know your (trading) enemy, or deal with the consequences,
Quote: In my observation E-CBOT has always been less reliable than its counterpart E-CME where the ES & NQ e-mini futures are traded. I recall the two exchanges merged earlier this year, however no plans annouced to move YM to the more stable platform.Thanks, nsolot, for the useful info. I will certainly re-consider my trading 'plans' and look at the other eminis. There might be more down time before they are finished with the merger of CME and CBOT. My experience with the mergers of any two big companies is there are a lot of mishaps before it is altogether and working as one team and one computerized system and networks. I suspect that even the other eminis could be experiencing similar problems sometime in the future during this merger process.
For this reason, I've turned my attention away from YM and on the other two. Also more volume and deeper market on ES & NQ.
--- Original message by nsolot on Sep 19, 2007 10:42 PM
Thanks Jay... now I understand. Not yet fully aware of all of the 'players' involved in making the new 'internet' and 'online' trading a reality. That is kind of scary that the 'exchange' can actually be down for so long. Don't they have provisions for multiple backup-network just so this kind of thing 'should' never happen? The ECBOT is just another ECN right? I thought such networks were designed to be up 99.999% of the time, right? Do you have any insight into how this could have happened that there was no automatic 'switchover', or the equivalent, so components that were still working? This kind of situation can cost a lot of people a LOT of money, so there are no excuses allowed, right?
So, will your servers somehow get the missing data replaced by tommorow? Or is it missing forever? Do you have a direct network connection to the source at CBOT, or are you dependent on the GLOBEX or ECBOT "exchange"?
And one more attempt to 'investigate' what is going on, I just requested both the @YMU7 and @YMZ7 futures contracts and charted them (this time at 1min resolution). BOTH of these two contracts are missing data during the same period! That seems logical, since the @YM# contract is defined to be the most 'current' contract, which today I believe would be the DEC (Z) contract, right? In any case that data missing for 1hr and 45 min today, just before 1:00pm (local, PST) time, and that would be 1hr-45min before 4pm EST.
So, again, anybody else see the same problem? What is going on here? :>))
Just an added note: I exited my charting application, and exited the IQFeed connection, and then reconnected everything a few minutes later. Now the server IP shows as 126.96.36.199, which is different than reported above (a few minutes ago). However, the missing data for @YM# is still missing (missing on all of my different intra-day charts). So, maybe the problem is not related to a single server?
Has anybody else observed that this same emni-dow data is misssing? That would be helpful to know, just to rule out any issue with my computer's database.
I am a new user of IQFeed data feed, and not yet actually trading on this data. Here is some more 'evidence' concerning the 'missing data' problem described above:
Today, Wed, 9/19/2007 about 11:15am PST the data for @YM# emni-Dow (continuous contract) stopped completely, until 1:00pm. That is an 1hr-45min time span of no data! I happen to be monitoring the index itself, INDU.X and also the DIA DIAMONDS TRUST data, all at 10 sec compression. Just for your info, my IQFeed version is 188.8.131.52.
The long break in the datastream for the symbol @YM#, was NOT observed in either of the other two symbols, but all are being plotted on the same chart (MultiCharts). I have also, tonight at about 6:30pm, (hours later) made the charting software do a 'reload' which is supposed to 're-quest' all the data on the chart, and then fill in any missing data. That action still resulted in the same missing data to remain "MIA" :>)).
So that would seem to imply to me that the data for that 1hr and 45min is STILL missing on at least the server that I have been connected to. How can this happen??
Doesn't DTN monitor and detect any missing data on server (which according to the IQ Connection Manager, has IP of 184.108.40.206, port 60002]. Am I supposed to somehow 'find' a different server for the re-load of the missing data? Can anybody shed some light on this situation? When will this data be made available, and when will the problem be fixed so that it does not happen in the future?
The current offering of forex-data, from DTN-IQFeed, is useful only to the most naive or casual forex traders/users. Why? Barclays and Tuttle are only two banks, i.e., they are just two of several hundreds of potential 'market-makers'. Since the Forex 'market' is NOT represented by just ONE ECN-type exchange, the typical retail-forex-trader is usually stuck with 'trading' with/against the 'dealing-desk' of ONE of the many 'market-makers' (banks, and non-banks included). Remember, the dealing-desk of a market-maker is taking the other side of your so called forex-trade, and therefore, the liquidity is likely to be only what that one market-maker wants you to see (and not see?).
Much more useful forex-data would be the 'total' aggregate contributions of all (or most) of the market-makers. Such a data-feed is available from the Interactive Data Corporation (IDC), and its subsidiary, ComStock Inc. This data feed has been referred to as the GTIS, and/or the PlusFeed, and it is currently only available at the retail-level through one of IDC's branded businesses known as eSignal. (with its Forex add-on product)... ooops that is one of DTN's competitors, right?
But short of DTN developing their own direct communication connections to all of those data-sources, maybe there is a way for DTN to buy the data from ComStock too? Or another and better idea is to create a whole centrally-cleared, global foreign exchange (FX) platform for the over the counter (OTC) market.
But that is exactly what the "FX Market Place" , a joint venture between CME and Reuters (and the 'new' CME, called the "CME Group" is doing now! See http://www.cmegroup.com/ and then click on link to Strategic Partners, http://www.fxmarketspace.com/ . According to this website, the "FXMarketSpace is the first centrally-cleared, global foreign exchange (FX) platform for the over the counter (OTC) market." As far as I can tell, this FX data is currently being offered only through Reuters 3000 Xtra terminals, but maybe DTN can be involved too?
So, I would encourage DTN's management to either provide the same data forex data service as now provided by eSignal, or provide a data-feed to the FX Market Place (CME) that does not require the institutional-level Reuters services (that are too expensive for the retail forex market).
In lieu of such a real forex CENTRAL-exchange, that replaces the current off-exchange aggregate of many (separate) market makers, there are just a few multi-liquidity-source type of ECNs (with a NON-dealing-desk infrastructure and business model).
The only two that I currently know of are EFX Group and Hotspot FX, and the data-feed for each of those is available via the eSignal-FX data-feed (when separated as just one 'component', apart from the aggregated total, using a special eSignal-symbol format).
The EFX Group offers STP/ECN for the processing of forex-trades: http://www.efxgroup.com/about-STP-ECN-definitions.html . Just like in the stock world with ARCA and ISLD, a EFX Group customer is trading the Forex market via an ECN that allows client orders to see and execute against other customer orders anonymously. In otherwords, there is a 'Level II' access to/by all participants in the ECN.
The Level I and II data from EFX Group's and HotSpot-FX's ECN are available via their platform (but not the history data), while the Level I data is ALSO available via the eSignal-FX subscription, with some history data too.
My suggestion is that DTN IQFeed should include access to both of these two real-time-streaming ECN's, and their HISTORY data, along with all of the other 200 (or more) usual market-makers, including Barclays and Tuttle (in order to get a more complete picture of all Forex-participants)
Any comments on DTN's plans in this area?
'Dabbling' in Forex? If you mean you really want to do some 'due diligences' type investigation of what is going on and what kind of trading opportunities might be in the FOREX, then you need to first ask yourself the 'right questions'. Namely, what is the so called Forex market(s)?
Unless you have already decided to use a particular bank (such as your 'broker' Barclys or Tullet), then it makes little sense even to ask the question of which data source is 'better'. Here is why: The 'Forex Market' is NOT (typically) based on an 'Electronic Communication Network' (ECN) such as in the 'stock markets'. The 'quotes' you might get from Barclay or Tullet banks are NOT the Bid/Ask prices that you would be trading against, UNLESS you are actually trading with that particular bank. The best that you can expect from these two data vendors is a general picture for maybe, say, daily charting purposes.
I wish that DTN would offer the GTIS foreign exchange data (from ComStock Europe, part of Interactive Data (NYSE: IDC). This data is already provided at the retail level by eSignal, and includes the (individucal contributions of ) data from about 200 banks, and other market makers. With this kind of data-feed you can 'see' the Bid/Ask streaming-real-time Level I data. This would be much better for charting and analysis purposes than just looking at Barclay's or Tullet's data-feed. Suggest you do a 'search' on "GTIS" for some more info.
But even more important than the data-feed used for charting and analysis would be to understand the issues related to the business model for the typical 'Forex-dealing-desk', and how it is probably not going to be working for your best interest. There are two broker types: – market makers (MMs) and those who offer Electronic Communications Network (ECN) trading. Please do yourself a favor and read about how using the typical forex dealer is, at best, risky and at worst is 'outright fraud'. If that statement shocks and concerns you then read the forums at http://nondealingdesk.com . I will not name any forex broker names here, but if you do not thoroughly inform yourself with the issue of 'dealing-desk' vs 'non-dealing-desk' you will likely be 'sorry' :>)).
So first ask what kind of broker you want to 'deal with', and then you might be ready for asking abou the data feed (for that broker). That's my (unsolicited) advise :>)) Hope that will be useful.